Curse

FengShuiDove · Nov 21, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysea

ANet gave us Mhenlo and Cynn, Koss and Melonni, and now Keiran and Gwen. I think there's a pattern there on how they approach romances. >.>

Yeah, seems like any of the NPC romance story lines follow the "Bros and B****es" gold standard.

Because Mhenlo, Koss, and Keiran are mega-bros. And their women are... the other thing.

Sytherek · Nov 21, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekodesu

Agree to this. And Iuris Is making, well, honestly everything he has written above is how it should be seen... All the things he says about Gwen is NORMAL HUMAN physology and reactions to traumas...

It's all just a bunch of: OMG GWEN IS NOT LIEK I WANT HER TOO SHE MUST DIE IN HELL.

She isn't how you guys might want her but she is how a normal human being is, and would be after what she has gone trough. Gawd, this story isn't about a princess and a prince it's realistic and deep, it's drama, it's heroic. How they made Gwen in EoTN is how you all would be after being in war, having your mother killed, being enslaved, used as a pet for entertainment.

Gosh...

Let's reverse the personalities, and see if you still approve. Let's say Keiran hides out in the Eye of the North, absorbed in his sorrow, growling at anyone who is kind, and ordering Gwen to change her haircut. Would you be so fond of that?

There's a vast difference between a "strong" person and what Gwen is. This is not drama, it's cheap theater by a company that couldn't write a healthy relationship to save its life. I see no drama in Gwen's attitude, because it doesn't grow or evolve -- in the end, after everything, she's still just plain nasty.

I'm not looking for Disney here -- I'm just sick of what ANet thinks passes for "dramatic romance."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysea

So much Gwen hate in here. Don't hate the character, hate the way she's been written. It's like they implanted Cynn's personality onto Gwen at the end of things.

I don't hate Gwen; I don't even object to her being bitter and angry when we first see her (again) at the Eye of the North. Such a story has great potential -- which ANet completely wasted by deciding she'd stay a self-absorbed emo, even after so many "learning" experiences.

What we got was Cynn Mark 2.

Can *anyone* defend how she ORDERED Keiran to change his hardo? Come on, how domineering and shrewish is that?

Her experiences haven't changed her at all; her little speech about growing and changing mean nothing.

Charlie Dayman · Nov 21, 2010, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Let's reverse the personalities, and see if you still approve. Let's say Keiran hides out in the Eye of the North, absorbed in his sorrow, growling at anyone who is kind, and ordering Gwen to change her haircut. Would you be so fond of that?

There's a vast difference between a "strong" person and what Gwen is. This is not drama, it's cheap theater by a company that couldn't write a healthy relationship to save its life. I see no drama in Gwen's attitude, because it doesn't grow or evolve -- in the end, after everything, she's still just plain nasty.

I'm not looking for Disney here -- I'm just sick of what ANet thinks passes for "dramatic romance."

To me, I sort of interpreted the closing parts of her last dialogue to be kind of playfully sarcastic. It definitely feels like she's opened up to Thackery, but it's still a little hard for her to let go of her snippy ways. I think everyone should wait until the actual wedding roles around. Once that happens, then we can start to decide whether or not the story ends with:

-and they lived happily ever after

OR

-and then she sues his ass for child custody

Sytherek · Nov 21, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cid Randell

Then go read a dramatic romance novel?

Part of a good RPG is a good story.

drkn · Nov 21, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Just to remind. WiK and HotN are, lore-wise, after EotN. After Gwen was forced to work along with Pyre and, eventually, had to somewhat get used to him. After striking down some of the Charr leaders. After defeating a great and ancient threat from the underground, not without the help of other races, including her hated Charr. Finally, after meeting her mother in the Underworld.
Gwen's development is what we hate here. Despite everything that has happened, over time, she's still bitter, full of hatred, bitching around about everything, not willing to let a nice guy anywhere near her. Though she somehow show her affection and care in HoM after we find the items of HotN, her initial response to Keiran's proposal deserves nothing more but a /facepalm.

IlikeGW · Nov 21, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

What disappoints me is I thought they were building up to redeem these lame characters... and they did the opposite. Gwen is still a shrew who's not fit to be married, I hope Thackeray enjoys his balls cut off and kept in a jar. And Kieran... his revelations make no sense. He was already a mature person trying to get Gwen out of her shell... but he ultimately failed and decided to force himself on her after an emotional event. I don't know, nothing about it is very touching to me. Neither really had a complete story arc. We just had the wedding dumped on our laps all the sudden.

MagnumShadow · Nov 21, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14

"You think you're the only one who has suffered? The only one who has lost family and friends to the charr?"
Our characters suffered much more than Gwen.She is just a little emo b....

Xiaquin · Nov 21, 2010, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnumShadow

Our characters suffered much more than Gwen.She is just a little emo b....

Really? We went on an adventure, she spent years in a slave camp.

Too many people want a movie romance. Like it's been said, it's probably closer to how a real-life, traumatized person and a head-over-heels other might play out. Life doesn't grant completeness or changing in character, and I'm honestly tired of "and they both said I love you, the end" arcs. That's utterly predictable and boring.

Besides, if you can't laugh along with some of this, you're taking it too seriously.

jazilla · Nov 21, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

totally agreed. i have seen zero in the way of Gwen and Thackeray's talks to see how the guy would fall in love with her. It is amusing though for sure.

Sytherek · Nov 21, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Really? We went on an adventure, she spent years in a slave camp.

Too many people want a movie romance. Like it's been said, it's probably closer to how a real-life, traumatized person and a head-over-heels other might play out. Life doesn't grant completeness or changing in character, and I'm honestly tired of "and they both said I love you, the end" arcs. That's utterly predictable and boring.

Besides, if you can't laugh along with some of this, you're taking it too seriously.

I'm not looking for storybook, or Disney romance.

I am looking for character development.

Oh... and in the real world, people do grow, change, and become more, overcoming challenges. I know women who've been through real world traumas that make Gwen's story seem like a walk in the park -- and some of them went on to be great people who moved beyond their hatreds and anger and traumas.

Gwen is not a great person. She is a self-absorbed emo who orders her betrothed to change his haircut. Yuck.

LifeInfusion · Nov 21, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

We've heard the same quote before.
"He's just so irritating" - Melonni about Koss

Gwen comes as a domination mesmer by default, so it's no wonder she's dominating Keiran's haircut decision. No need to Panic.

Shouldn't this be in the lore forum?

Master Fuhon · Nov 21, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

*Rewrites new disturbing lore about Thackery to stop the complaining about Gwen*

...in those last moments with the bound soul of Captain Langmar, Thackery realized once and for all that what he wanted was someone cold and unresponsive that he could control. Leading the living within the Vanguard didn't bring the same satisfaction as what he found from binding the souls of the recently departed. He tried reanimating their corpses, but that did not benefit from his expertise. He could now lead the helpless people of Kryta to reap the benefits of their inevitable doom against the superior forces of the Mantle. What had attracted him to Miku was only her killing prowess, but he could now share this with his beloved Gwen, if only he were to change completely... his secondary from Paragon to Ritualist. Besides, Tyria needed a greater hero than anything a shouting Ranger could have offered...

Elysea · Nov 21, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Oh... and in the real world, people do grow, change, and become more, overcoming challenges. I know women who've been through real world traumas that make Gwen's story seem like a walk in the park -- and some of them went on to be great people who moved beyond their hatreds and anger and traumas.

You know, I sort of agreed with you on some of your points, until you said that. That's wonderful that you've known women like that, but you forget some important things:

1. Gwen's fictional. The way she handles her hardships is based on the writers. Why don't you give the writers a chance to expand her character more? Give her the chance to grow?
2. Gwen's also nineteen, as in, not an adult. She's not going to react the same way as an adult would.
3. Not everyone reacts to trauma and abuse the same way, so please don't spout the, "Well, I know someone who got over it this way, so she's not doing it right," stuff. Seriously.

And yeah, this should probably be in the lore forum.

Dusk_ · Nov 21, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Oh... and in the real world, people do grow, change, and become more, overcoming challenges. I know women who've been through real world traumas that make Gwen's story seem like a walk in the park -- and some of them went on to be great people who moved beyond their hatreds and anger and traumas.

Gwen is not a great person. She is a self-absorbed emo who orders her betrothed to change his haircut. Yuck.

Wow...so you know someone who's had it worse than seeing their country burned down into nothing, living a quarter of their lives in a slave camp, and another quarter fighting a constant war?

Nekodesu · Nov 21, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Let's reverse the personalities, and see if you still approve. Let's say Keiran hides out in the Eye of the North, absorbed in his sorrow, growling at anyone who is kind, and ordering Gwen to change her haircut. Would you be so fond of that?

There's a vast difference between a "strong" person and what Gwen is. This is not drama, it's cheap theater by a company that couldn't write a healthy relationship to save its life. I see no drama in Gwen's attitude, because it doesn't grow or evolve -- in the end, after everything, she's still just plain nasty.

I'm not looking for Disney here -- I'm just sick of what ANet thinks passes for "dramatic romance."

If it was Keiran instead I would not see it any different, do you think I'm sexist or something? Perhaps the act would be different cause men react different in cases to trauma then women. Gwen is strong but she's traumatised. I don't see gwen going to a shrink anywhere.

Disney is good btw : )))

A11Eur0 · Nov 21, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

ITT: people who have never been in a real relationship worth a damn.

Sytherek · Nov 21, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Wow...so you know someone who's had it worse than seeing their country burned down into nothing, living a quarter of their lives in a slave camp, and another quarter fighting a constant war?

Actually, yes, I do.

A11Eur0 · Nov 21, 2010, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Actually, yes, I do.

I doubt this very much. Please, elaborate your worse case scenario.

RedStar · Nov 21, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Now now, let's all play nice when talking about pixels.

I dislike Gwen, a lot. Especially her attitude toward Pyre when they first meet.
And then the fact the she's is totally on the defensive because she's been through a lot. So has Eve, yet she likes to make jokes.
Gwen...she justs keep lamenting without moving on.

However concerning her romance with Keiran : I like it.
From dialogue 1 to 8 I really liked how it was going. Dialogue 9 she had her period...(sorry too easy to make that joke).

She's bitchy and thinks emotions are weaknesses. She meets us and finds people that actually care (it's not that the Ebon hates her, it's just that she is considered like any other soldiers) so she opens up a bit more.
Then comes Keiran and he tries to open her heart, it's kind of normal that she sort of reject him and has a hard time saying "I love you".

Quote:

Gwen: Well, you can leave me here long enough to go and get yourself cleaned up. I'm not going to marry you looking like you just crawled out of a hole. Oh, and Keiran?
Keiran Thackeray: What is it?
Gwen: You better not put your hair back in that stupid ponytail. I've never liked that thing.

She could have said it instead of making me laugh.

But if you pay attention, Keiran never said that he loved her either.

Sytherek · Nov 21, 2010, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysea

1. Gwen's fictional. The way she handles her hardships is based on the writers. Why don't you give the writers a chance to expand her character more? Give her the chance to grow?

They've had several years and quite a bit of plot to do something. If anything, she's REGRESSED. I liked where she was at the end of EotN -- she'd come to grips with her traumas in many ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysea

2. Gwen's also nineteen, as in, not an adult. She's not going to react the same way as an adult would.

Depends on the 19yo, I guess. If she's that much of a child, she's going to have a tough time with marriage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysea

3. Not everyone reacts to trauma and abuse the same way, so please don't spout the, "Well, I know someone who got over it this way, so she's not doing it right," stuff. Seriously.

She is supposed to be a LEADER, running an operation where people's lives are on the line. If she's such a child and emo, I think I know why the Ascalonians are eventually reduced to a single city (Ebonhawke) in a remote place...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I doubt this very much. Please, elaborate your worse case scenario.

I know a young African woman whose home was destroyed, her family raped and butchered, herself maimed and left for dead; Her brother (at age 10) was forced to be a soldier, and killed. She is now a software engineer in Belgium, and a good friend. I met her through one of my books, which she was using as a text.

Believe what you will.